Description

In this episode of the 95 Podcast, Dale Sellers sits down with Dave and Kristin Miller, founders of a ministry that helps churches develop the next generation of leaders through structured residency programs. The conversation explores the critical need for leadership development and succession planning in churches, especially with 160,000 pastoral transitions expected in the next decade.

Dave and Kristin share their journey from local church ministry to creating a system that helps churches across the country implement 24-month residency programs that truly develop young leaders rather than just using them as cheap labor. They discuss the challenges middle managers face in developing others, the importance of intentional coaching conversations, and how their model draws from the teaching hospital approach. The episode also features candid insights about maintaining a healthy marriage while serving in ministry together.

Key Points In Brief

• The Leadership Crisis: With 160,000 churches facing pastoral transitions in the next decade, there’s a critical shortage of developed leaders ready to step into these roles.
• Residency Model: Dave and Kristin have launched 188 residency programs helping churches implement structured 24-month leadership development processes focused on mentoring young leaders (ages 20-25).
• Teaching Hospital Approach: Their model mirrors medical residencies—creating environments that want more FOR residents than FROM them, with intentional developmental conversations and coaching.
• The Middle Manager Challenge: The biggest obstacle isn’t senior leadership buy-in but middle managers who are overwhelmed, juggling multiple roles, and weren’t formally developed themselves.
• Multiplication Effect: They coach the church leaders, who then coach the residents, creating multiplicative development rather than just one-on-one mentoring.
• Seven Ingredients: True leadership development requires biblical education, spiritual formation, mental wellness, weekly developmental conversations, ownership, and learning to work the process consistently.
• Marriage in Ministry: Dave and Kristin model healthy ministry partnership through non-negotiable date nights, respecting boundaries, avoiding exploitation of each other’s workaholism, and putting relationships before performance.

Key Takeaways

1. Work the Process. Success in leadership development comes from consistently working through a proven process over 104 weeks, not looking for shortcuts or getting distracted by weekly changes.

2. One Size Fits One. Rather than treating residents as cheap labor to get more done, effective residency focuses on bringing out the best in each individual through personalized development.

3. Learn FROM Them. Residency is a two-way street. Leaders must learn from Gen Z residents by understanding their culture and perspectives, rather than trying to make them work like previous generations.

4. Time and Talking. Jesus and Paul made disciples through walking and extended conversations. Modern leadership development must recreate that unhurried space for developmental dialogue.

5. Count What Counts. When leadership development is measured and valued at the same level as ministry outcomes, it takes root at the deepest levels of the organization.

6. Your Gift Makes Room. Even residents who don’t seem like an obvious fit initially can become invaluable as their gifts emerge and they learn the organization’s DNA over 24 months.

7. Guard Your Marriage Intentionally. Ministry couples must put marriage first through scheduled date nights, clear work boundaries, avoiding exploitation, and valuing the relationship over performance.

Notable Quotes

On the broken system: “We hire people that are awesome that can get stuff done… Then you add someone in to be developed. Did you sit down this week? And we don’t because we don’t have time.”

On unintentional self-preservation: “Did I consistently wake up thinking, what can I do to replace myself? Who’s the next me? No, I think I did the opposite of that… I think I did what I could to make sure I was so valuable they couldn’t have done without me.”

On the quitting culture: “What we’re seeing in today’s generation of church, we just had a lot of quitting—quitting on people—and we can’t do that anymore.”

On residency philosophy: “Residency is about creating an environment that wants more FOR them than FROM them, like the teaching hospital.”

On two-way development: “This isn’t just about getting the kids to work harder… This is about learning from them, meeting them on their schedules, on their time, learning their cultures and their ways of doing things and bringing out the best in them. And then they bring out the best in us.”

On the real problem: “What’s the problem you’re in love with? The problem we’re in love with is helping these churches hire young people and then not have them quit or get run off.”

On marriage priority: “I value that marriage more than I value this performance. And I value those friendships more than I value this performance because I want to see… I want to be there for their graduations.”

Dale on succession: “Pastor’s been there for 37 years… when the pastor resigns, they have a big party and then they have to get a search committee and start all over. And I’m like, what in the world’s going on?”

Next Steps

For Church Leaders Interested in Residency:

• Schedule an exploratory call with Dave and Kristin to understand if residency fits your church context
• Assess your church’s readiness: Do you have middle managers willing to invest weekly developmental time?
• Consider what role(s) would benefit from a resident (youth, worship, children’s, guest services, etc.)
• Review your accountability systems—residency thrives when development is counted and measured

For Current Ministry Leaders:

• Evaluate: Are you waking up thinking about who’s next, or protecting your own position?
• Schedule weekly developmental conversations with those you’re mentoring (not just task-oriented check-ins)
• Learn FROM the younger generation instead of only trying to teach them
• Work on having slow conversations that prioritize relationship and formation over productivity

For Ministry Couples:

• Put date night on the calendar as a non-negotiable weekly appointment
• Set clear work boundaries (example: no work after 6 PM, no emails on off days)
• Avoid exploiting your spouse’s drive and gifts even when they’re willing
• Take a full day off each week without exception

For Pastors’ Spouses:

• Connect with other ministry spouses for mutual prayer and encouragement
• Take interest in what your spouse does in ministry—be united on mission together
• Don’t live isolated; you’re better together with other ministry families

Link To Podcast Audio: 95Podcast 324

Link To Podcast YouTube:

Q & A Transcript

The full transcript contains rich conversational detail. Key discussion sections include:

Opening Banter (Introduction): Dale recounts meeting Dave and Kristin in Denver at a conference, joking about the “fru fru” restaurant choice and Dave’s early morning flight.

Personal Stories: Kristin shares about meeting Jesus at age 9 when her family walked into a church for the first time, greeted by Nancy the pastor’s wife. Dave shares about his privileged church upbringing in Lexington, Kentucky.

Marriage & Family: Both married 33 years (1992), had children in ’93 and ’94, now empty nesters enjoying grandkids. Dale and Gina married 43 years (1982), demonstrating longevity in ministry marriages.

Connection with Jason Allison: Dave and Jason Allison were childhood basketball teammates (Dave #10, Jason #11) and baseball players in Lexington, Kentucky.

The Residency Concept: Originated from Kristin’s experience with high-risk pregnancy at a teaching hospital, seeing how residents learned under experienced physicians. They’ve now launched 188 residency programs in eight years.

The 24-Month Process:

Year 1: Resident watches leader and helps

Year 2: Resident leads while leader watches and helps (pressing repeat on all year 1 activities)

Result: By month 18, residents become highly desired and hirable, with multiple churches competing for them

The Middle Manager Problem: Senior pastors are usually passionate about residency and love popping in for lunches. But middle managers (youth/worship/creative pastors juggling multiple roles) struggle to carve out weekly developmental time because they’re proving their worth through productivity, not development.

Working the Process: When challenges arise at months 4, 9, or 15, the team has learned to ask: “Are you working the process?” Consistency in sitting down for developmental conversations weekly is what makes the difference.

Notable Failure Story: Dave shares about one resident who completed 24 months but wasn’t hirable—the last one Dave directly oversaw. Led to better systems with Kristin now leading a team of coaches with proven processes.

The Ownership Ingredient: Like a personal trainer, the resident must show up and do the work. But like a sports coach, the leader must feel the angst of potential failure and celebration of wins, adapting approaches when needed.

Marriage in Ministry: Dave sets firm boundaries (no work past 6 PM or he’ll work till 2 AM; schedules emails for appropriate times). Both take days off weekly. Date night is always on the calendar—”You’re an idiot if you don’t date your wife.” They’re both Enneagram 3s (achievers) who have to intentionally balance and keep each other accountable. They live in Denver as “concrete people” who love good food, restaurants, musicals, and Red Rocks concerts.

For Fun: Kristin loves cooking and is a foodie; they enjoy checking out restaurants and seeing musicals downtown.