Description

In this compelling episode of the 95 Podcast, Dale Sellers sits down with Amy Anderson of The Unstuck Group to discuss critical topics facing church leaders today. Fresh from leading The Unstuck Group through the unexpected loss of founder Tony Morgan, Amy shares profound insights on succession planning, navigating grief while leading, and the importance of knowing when to pass the torch. The conversation explores the church life cycle, metrics that matter for sustained health, and the exciting resurgence of spiritually hungry young adults returning to church. Amy offers practical wisdom on how pastors can focus on what only they can do, build leadership benches, and position their churches to reach the next generation effectively.

Key Points In Brief

• Amy’s Journey: 35 years of marriage, three grown kids, six grandchildren on the way; started in corporate (3M, Amation), transitioned to church ministry for 12-13 years, now 11 years with The Unstuck Group working with 250+ churches
• Core vs. Defend vs. Discuss Beliefs: Churches share common core beliefs worth dying for; defend beliefs (like women in leadership, Calvinism vs. Arminianism) we’ll defend but shouldn’t let divide; discuss beliefs (age of earth) are open conversations
• Leading Through Loss: After Tony Morgan’s sudden death in fall 2024, Amy led The Unstuck Group through grief while experiencing their biggest year of service; team-based leadership and lack of weekly “52 events” helped manage the weight
• Succession Planning Essentials: Best time to plan is during the high point, not the decline; requires 2-3 year transition across three lanes—teaching/preaching, board leadership, and staff leadership; pastors often stay too long
• Church Life Cycle Reality: Every church goes through a life cycle; the key is recognizing where you are and reinventing at sustained health to avoid decline; metrics tell the story before attendance and finances show problems
• Maintenance Phase Warning: When you’re more worried about keeping people happy than moving mission forward, you’re in maintenance; false happiness comes from good attendance/finances while momentum is actually slipping
• Lead Indicators to Watch: Percentage of people serving, new people in database, kids check-ins, and baptisms—these decline before overall attendance, giving early warning signs
• Future Pastor Shortage: Over 100,000 pastors expected to transition in next 10 years; seminaries aren’t producing enough replacements; churches must build leadership benches and create residency programs to raise up future leaders
• What Lead Pastors Must Do: Cast vision, be spiritual leader/teacher, champion where church is going—but don’t have to do everything; surround with team that complements weaknesses
• Two Essential Strategies: (1) Effective weekend service reaching new people—the primary entry point; (2) Clear discipleship pathway with simple steps: serving (spiritual gifts), community (finding 3 friends), generosity
• Exciting Trend: Spiritual temperature is rising; Gen Z and 28-40 year olds (with and without kids) are finding their way to church, spiritually hungry—not returners but new seekers trying out faith
• Hope for the Future: While some churches will close (the “clubs” not on mission), there’s a strong army of mission-focused churches making tough decisions, refining strategies, and positioned to reach this seeking generation

Key Takeaways

1. Plan Succession at Your Peak, Not Your Decline

The best time to plan leadership transition is when things are going well, not when momentum is lost. Pastors should initiate the conversation about stepping down while they can leave on a high note. A 2-3 year transition across teaching, board leadership, and staff leadership gives the best outcomes. The person waiting to succeed shouldn’t have to wait more than 3 years or they’ll likely leave.

2. Metrics Reveal Decline Before It’s Visible

Attendance and finances are lagging indicators. Leading indicators like percentage serving, new people in database, kids check-ins, and baptisms will show decline first. Pay attention to these during “good times” so you can adjust strategies before gasping for air. Churches at sustained health must continuously monitor and reinvent to avoid the maintenance phase.

3. Focus on What Only You Can Do

Lead pastors must excel at three things: casting vision, teaching/spiritual leadership, and championing the mission. Everything else should be delegated to a team that complements weaknesses. Trying to be everything to everyone leads to burnout and ineffectiveness. Embrace interdependence—God designed the body of Christ to work together.

4. Simplify to Two Core Strategies

Stop doing 20 things poorly. Focus on (1) an effective weekend service that reaches new people, and (2) a clear discipleship pathway with simple steps. Most people stick when they serve (find their gifts), connect (find 3 friends), and give (generosity). Everything else should support these two strategies or be eliminated.

5. The Next Generation Is Spiritually Hungry

Gen Z and 28-40 year olds are showing up at churches ready to explore faith—many are first-time seekers, not returners. Churches focused on reaching this demographic with relevant methods (not just updating music) are experiencing significant growth. This is the moment to make strategic shifts and meet them where they are.

Notable Quotes

“I probably hold much tighter to the core beliefs and I hold a little more loosely. I’ve got room for those defend beliefs… I don’t want to die for things that aren’t worth dying for.” — Amy Anderson

“I have shifted from doing a lot of telling to doing a lot of asking over these last couple decades.” — Amy Anderson

“It is more fun for you to leave on that high note than it is for everybody to watch you crest and start to go down and all of a sudden you can’t have the good ending that you wanted.” — Amy Anderson

“The best gift you can give your team if you’re a lead pastor is leading through that process really strong. So you can end strong and the transition can go through in a way that it’s not about you.” — Amy Anderson

“Part of me is like, ‘Thank you, Lord.’ And part of me is like that should not be happening. That should not be happening without my friend in the driver’s seat.” — Amy Anderson (on Unstuck Group’s biggest year after Tony’s death)

“I didn’t feel lonely because I had a tremendous team around me. We have always been team-based.” — Amy Anderson

“I don’t feel worthy of this role. But I am so thankful to the Lord for continuing our mission.” — Amy Anderson

“When you are riding a good wave, that is the time to begin the planning.” — Amy Anderson

“If your first thought is ‘I don’t think people are going to like if we change that’… you start to be motivated by what you think people will think versus thinking is this going to move our mission forward.” — Amy Anderson (on maintenance phase)

“God made none of us whole. God made us wholly interdependent with the body of Christ in order to lead his church.” — Amy Anderson

“If we can help them find three friends, they’ll stick. But if they can’t find friends, they won’t stick.” — Shelley from Orchard Church (quoted by Amy)

“Are we a business or are we a church? You’re an organization. Organizational principles transcend whether you’re for-profit, nonprofit, ministry, secular.” — Amy Anderson

“If you’re going to lead a church, you need to have leadership. You need to have a leadership gifting.” — Amy Anderson

“The weekend service still is the primary strategy for churches to reach new people. If we don’t reach new people, we have nobody to disciple and our church will die.” — Amy Anderson

“There is an increase in the spiritual temperature… the 28 to 40 year olds with kids, without kids, they’re finding their way through the doors and they’re really spiritually hungry.” — Amy Anderson

Next Steps

For Lead Pastors:

1. Assess Your Life Cycle Position — Honestly evaluate where your church is on the life cycle curve using leading indicators (serving percentage, new people, kids, baptisms) not just attendance and finances
2. Start Succession Conversations — If you’re in your peak years, begin planning your 2-3 year transition across teaching, board, and staff leadership; identify potential successors now
3. Audit Your Time — List what only you can do (cast vision, teach, champion mission) vs. what you’re doing that others should handle; begin delegating immediately
4. Evaluate Your Weekend Experience — Invite an outsider to your service and get honest feedback; is it effective for reaching new people or just maintaining current attendees?
5. Simplify Your Strategy — Write down all programs and events, then ruthlessly eliminate anything not directly supporting weekend excellence or discipleship pathway

For Church Boards:

1. Read The Unstuck Church Together — Go through it chapter by chapter, discuss implications for your church governance and pastor’s role
2. Define Leadership Lanes — Clarify that the board advises while the lead pastor leads; fix governance structure if needed
3. Build Leadership Bench — Create residency or institute programs to raise up future ministry leaders from within your congregation

For All Church Leaders:

1. Focus on the Spiritually Curious — Create low-commitment, low-time first steps (10-15 minute next step experiences after services, not 3-week hour-long classes)
2. Help People Find 3 Friends — Prioritize connection strategies that help newcomers build relationships quickly
3. Stay Mission-Focused — Keep asking “Does this move our mission forward?” instead of “Will people like this change?”

Book: The Unstuck Church

 

Link To Podcast Audio: 95Podcast 322

 

Link To Podcast YouTube:

Q & A Highlights from Transcript

Q: How have you matured or progressed in your faith as you’ve gotten older?

Amy: I probably hold much tighter to the core beliefs and hold more loosely to the defend beliefs. Life kicks you around and the gray is just there a little bit. Love trumps a lot of things. There’s so much on this side of heaven we’re not going to understand, but if our due north is on Jesus and how he loved, that helps us through the gray.

Q: How did you navigate grief while continuing to lead after Tony’s passing?

Amy: Two things helped: (1) I had a tremendous team around me—we’ve always been team-based, so I didn’t feel lonely or like I had to carry everything; (2) I didn’t have the relentless pace of 52 weekend events like pastors do. Tony led a team-based organization, so a lot didn’t change. I submitted to God saying “I will do whatever you call me to do, but know I don’t feel like I have the wiring for this” and He showed up.

Q: What advice for grieving while still having to lead?

Amy: It just took time. It still takes time. It still surprises me. We couldn’t come together physically because we’re a remote team across different states, which made it harder. Part of me is thankful for our biggest year at Unstuck, but part of me feels like it shouldn’t be happening without Tony in the driver’s seat. It was a bittersweet year.

Q: What are some good next steps for succession planning if I haven’t even started?

Amy: If you have a 2-3 year window, transition across three lanes: (1) Teaching — Year 1 current pastor has lion’s share, Year 2 is 50/50, Year 3 new person has lion’s share; (2) Board leadership — Year 1 new person observes, Year 2 takes bigger voice, Year 3 takes the lead; (3) Staff leadership — One person stepping down, the other stepping up. If you only have one year, the same principles apply, just compressed.

Q: Does everything in life have a life cycle, including the local church?

Amy: Absolutely. Every church will go through that church life cycle, and if they aren’t careful, they’ll end up on the declining side. Some churches launch and die without going through the full cycle. The key is knowing where you’re at because you don’t want to crest and lose momentum. Like Apple, you have to keep reinventing and creating new J-curves to stay at sustained health.

Q: What should churches do at the pinnacle/sustained health phase?

Amy: Pay attention to your metrics—they’ll tell you if you’re starting to decline before it happens. When you’re at the top producing growth, baptisms, healthy vital signs, that’s when you need to watch lead indicators: percentage serving, new people in database, kids check-ins. These decline first. The time to reinvent strategy is when you’re surrounded by health, not when you’re gasping for air.

Q: How does maintenance phase impact a church?

Amy: In maintenance you’re losing momentum. A clue you’re there: when people suggest changes and your first thought is “I don’t think people are going to like that.” You’re motivated by keeping people happy versus moving mission forward. Numbers might still look good (false happiness), but you’re slipping. If you don’t turn it around, you move into preservation where it’s about keeping people from leaving.

Q: How should churches address the pastor shortage (100,000+ transitioning in next 10 years)?

Amy: Churches need to take responsibility for building leadership benches. Create residency programs or institutes (like Sun Valley Church’s 2-3 year program) that provide leadership development and theology training. Instead of waiting for seminaries to produce pastors, intentionally help people understand if there’s a call on their life and raise them up within your church.

Q: What should a pastor do if their board expects them to do everything?

Amy: First, get governance structure right—board should be advisors, lead pastor is the lead pastor. Read The Unstuck Church together as a team, chapter by chapter. It’s practical and still relevant today. It will help elevate where senior pastors need to spend their time. Last year, the average church in our tribe grew 13% year-over-year. This isn’t made up—it’s proven.

Q: How can churches decide what 1-2 things to focus on instead of 20 things poorly?

Amy: (1) Effective weekend service — Still the primary strategy for reaching new people. If we don’t reach new people, we have nobody to disciple. Put it under the microscope—invite a friend and pay attention with fresh eyes; (2) Primary discipleship steps — Simple catalysts like serving (spiritual gifts), connecting in community (finding 3 friends makes them stick), and generosity. Everything you do should lead to reaching and discipling people, or it’s just running a club.

Q: What scares you most about the next 5 years for the American church?

Amy: [pauses] It doesn’t scare me that some churches will close because those are the clubs—God always brings new and fresh. I see such a strong army of mission-focused churches making tough decisions, building leadership benches, scrubbing ministry strategies. We need churches of all shapes, sizes, and denominations because we have all different kinds of people to reach. Pastors who pay attention to where God placed their church and adjust strategies will have God’s hand on them. Those who ignore culture and their mission field will lose gas and close.

Q: What excites you about the next few years?

Amy: So many people are coming to church—not returners, but people just trying it out. There’s an increase in spiritual temperature. Gen Z and 28-40 year olds with and without kids are finding their way through the doors and are really spiritually hungry. God’s doing something in North America right now—we’re even hearing it in England. The majority of churches we work with have this as their primary target audience, so it’s never been better than right now if churches will just make some shifts.