Description

Discover how to transform your church from a teaching center to a training center. Pastor Derek Sanford shares proven strategies for mobilizing volunteers, creating a permission-to-fail culture, and equipping people for ministry beyond church walls.

Guest: Derek Sanford, Lead Pastor at Grace Church, Erie, Pennsylvania (30 years)

Core Topic: Shifting from institutional church models to empowering high-capacity volunteers and creating training environments that equip people for ministry in all areas of life.

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Key Points In Brief

• Moving from teaching centers to training centers
• Creating a culture where people can try, fail, and grow
• Expanding the definition of ministry beyond church walls
• Developing practical tools and workshops for discipleship
• Changing the scorecard from attendance metrics to life transformation

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Key Takeaways

1. America’s churches are over-inspired and under-trained. People hear great messages but don’t know how to actually do ministry. The solution is creating workshop environments where people learn by doing, not just listening.
2. The greatest untapped resource in your church is your people. Don’t wait for quality servers to transfer from other churches—mine the potential in your own congregation by giving them tools, training, and permission to try.
3. Flip the funnel. Jesus didn’t use the attend-connect-serve model (wide at the top, narrow at the bottom). He used a multiplication model: call-train-send (narrow at the start, expanding outward).
4. Redefine the finish line. Ministry doesn’t end inside church walls. The marketplace, neighborhoods, nonprofits, and families are equally valid—and often more impactful—ministry arenas.
5. Change the scorecard. Stop measuring only attendance and giving. Start measuring discipleship fruits, life-on-life mentoring, and ministry impact in all five arenas (church, neighborhood, nonprofit, family, marketplace/affinity groups).
6. Create training environments, not teaching seminars. Cap groups at 16-18 people, use adult learning methodologies, and focus on helping people leave being able to do something they couldn’t do before, not just know something new.
7. Model transparency about failure. If you want a permission-to-fail culture, leaders must talk openly about their own struggles and failures. This creates psychological safety for others to try and grow.
8. Innovate on the side first. Don’t announce wholesale change. Start small, get proof of concept, tell stories until the church catches the vision, then expand.

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Notable Quotes

“The church in America is over-inspired and under-trained. We come in and we raise our hands in worship and we hear great messages… and that’s about the end of it. But people don’t know how to do it.”

“Our greatest strength is not our worship team. It’s not our kids ministry. It’s not our building. It’s our people—that gives us access to all kinds of stuff we wouldn’t have access to otherwise.”

“We sensed God calling us to do more than we had paid staff to do. Our vision is too big for what we can afford from a staff perspective. We had to decide: Are we going to let that stop us or figure out another way?”

“Untapped means available but not used. There are people who are available but they’re not being used because we haven’t had the imagination to ask them.”

“We don’t want people to leave knowing something they didn’t know when they came in. We want them to leave being able to do something they couldn’t do when they came in.”

“We’ve totally ignored that multiplication funnel—how do we help people understand how they’re called, how do we train them, and how do we send them literally outside the walls of the church.”

“If you don’t know how to be a friend to somebody, you can’t disciple them. Discipleship is based on friendship.”

“Every time I hear you talk about small groups, I feel guilty that I’m not doing that. [But this business leader] was already doing what we wanted everybody to do—and to our shame, we don’t count that as ministry.”

“It’s not just about who I’m bringing in. It’s about who I’m sending out.”

“If the leaders of my church in 1995 had said ‘We’re going to run a 1945 ministry model,’ I would have said ‘Peace out.’ And yet so many churches right now are running a 50-year-old church growth model.”

“We’re a microwave culture and we probably need more of a crock-pot approach to ministry. The fruit over time is the gold.”

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Next Steps

For Church Leaders:

1. Audit your training vs. teaching ratio—are you creating workshop environments or just disseminating information?
2. Identify 3-5 people in your congregation who could lead at higher levels if given tools and permission
3. Define what discipleship fruits look like in your local context (Derek’s church identified 4 “dream disciple roles”)
4. Create one pilot training workshop (cap at 16-18 people) where participants practice a specific skill
5. Expand your definition of ministry beyond church walls—celebrate the marketplace, neighborhood, and family ministers

For Volunteers and Members:

1. Ask yourself: What arena is God calling me to minister in right now? (Church, neighborhood, nonprofit, family, marketplace/affinity group)
2. Identify one friend you could be more intentional with—try the “Now to Next” prayer tool Derek describes
3. Give yourself permission to try something and fail—growth happens through experimentation
4. Request practical training, not just teaching—ask your leaders for tools you can actually use

Resources Mentioned:

• Derek’s book: The Untapped Church
• Derek’s podcast: “Reinventing Church” (3 seasons available at dereksanford.com)
• Clarity House (organization that helped Grace Church with discipleship frameworks)
• Handcrafted curriculum (for helping people identify their calling)

Link To Podcast Audio: 95Podcast 325

 

Link To Podcast YouTube:

Q & A Highlights from Transcript

Q: How do you keep from getting bored pastoring the same place for 30 years?

A: If you’re thinking, innovating, and trying to make the gospel make sense to different groups of people, it’s always fascinating. The mission calls you to reach different kinds of people, and the people coming and going are always different.

Q: What feeds the insecurity in Erie’s culture?

A: It’s a combination of factors—difficult weather, blue-collar socioeconomic challenges, industries leaving, and historically being change-resistant (even refusing to let the railroad through in the 1800s). There’s also a cultural mentality that “if our kids grow up here, they have to move away to make something of themselves.”

Q: Was your volunteer-empowerment model strategic or organic?

A: Both. It’s been in our DNA, but around 2010 we had an aha moment: “Our people are our greatest strength.” We sensed God calling us to do more than paid staff could accomplish, so we decided not to let budget limitations stop us from pursuing God’s vision.

Q: How do you help people find their sweet spot?

A: First, create a culture where people can try things and fail without giving up. Second, use curriculum like “Handcrafted” that helps people identify their calling based on life experience, how they’re wired, and their current positioning. But don’t over-formalize it—trial and error with proper support works too.

Q: How do you create a permission-to-fail culture?

A: Model it. Talk transparently about your own failures and struggles as a leader. When people see you’re not putting on a veneer of perfection, they feel safer to try, fail, and grow. Also, highlight the biblical reality that every hero of faith failed along the way.

Q: What if my church leadership won’t make these changes?

A: First, recognize this requires discernment—some situations may require moving on. But Derek is a big believer in the long game. Innovate on the side where you can, get proof of concept, tell stories, and watch change come (probably slower than you’d like). Ministry impact multiplies over time. We need more crock-pot approaches, not microwave expectations.